Collaboration in Action: TJG 2.0

Yes. Welcome to episode eleven of creative collaboration conversations with Veronica and Jillian. And I’m Jillian. And today is very special because we’re going to do something that’s one of those opportunities to do what you say and say what you do, or do what you say and say what you do. In our recent episode, we talked about experimentation. So we thought what better opportunity than to dig into live experimentation or collaborating? So today is Veronica’s turn to be in the hot seat. And we’re going to experiment with this format of doing live collaboration and perhaps some networking. And so without further ado, Veronica, episode eleven. 

Let’s have it. Hey, Jillian. And hello, everyone. Actually, in Romania, we have a saying: do what the priest says, not what the priest does. So I think that will apply here. So basically we do want to walk the talk and play. And I did love our previous episode about experimentation. And we’re like, come on, let’s just stay true to what we are standing for. And we’re going to start with my business. 

Yeah, because I think honestly, to me, this is where some of the gold and kind of the magic happens. But I don’t know that it’s like experimentation for me. I don’t know how much this is going to translate into the video format or the audio format of podcasting. I’m not sure. But I feel like this is probably more so than anything else. This topic would be the thing that we would be most likely to kind of workshop over if we were having a coffee and talking about what’s going on. So I feel like part of me.

There should be more brainstorming.

Yeah, it is in a way. In my brain. I’m just going to talk to you like it was just you and I at Coffee and Coconuts or just chatting or just having a very hereby.

The way, coffee, and Coconuts. If you’re hearing this, you should sponsor us because we keep on bringing you in almost every episode and I keep on looking there.

They’re part of our origin story. Exactly.

We need a partnership with them. I think coming back to this one, it’s an experiment. So I’m in the process of actually doing ONS 2.0 or just upgrading it or changing it because times are changing and there are two things. One, I’m getting bored of doing it the old way and if I’m getting bored then my audience is going to get bored. So that’s not good. Two, I want to bring more value to it. So I have an idea. I’m not sure about the implementation side because I mean that’s brainstorming, exchanging ideas, and playing with different formats. So just to be clear, I don’t expect after half an hour of discussion or everything I’m going to implement to have the right recipe because I think we need to be honest with our audience. This is not how things are happening, that’s not the reality.

Probably some of the things are going to click and will be good, but in reality, you do need to try different things. I’m not a big fan of this word, but fail or just see what is working and TB testing and just seeing what clicks. Good.

Thank you for that quickly. Now I feel less pressure because I feel like I.

Can tell you that’s.

Great. I’m glad that you set your expectations because, at the end of the day, I’m really about asking questions. So I’ll be the first one to say I’m great at asking questions but I don’t fancy myself the expert in being able to tell you all the things to do. I show up in business by asking questions and then connecting the dots is kind of how I approach it.

This is what we have in common, connecting the dots. Perfect. It’s impossible. And I think this has to be mentioned from the beginning because if you get a company saying I’m going to fix your company or solution or whatever they need to fix in 2 hours and I’m going to tell you the recipe run because it doesn’t work like that.

Yeah, for sure.

That’s not real. It just doesn’t happen because there are so many factors to take into account. But maybe for new listeners or even all listeners who are not so well aware of the ONS, we should just start with what ONS is. Not one I stand.

 No, it’s helpful for me.

A little bit of the history and where I want to go.

Yeah, tell me a bit about it. A little bit about the history. Yeah, where do you want to go? And then I’m going to start just asking some questions and whatnot. So I don’t want to break your flow, but I’m going to just ask some questions as you’re going.

Please do. I have my notebook and my pen ready to go. Okay. Online Networking with the Spin was launched in 2020 and was my response to the pandemic because everything was closed. US meeting and networking. Honestly, it’s a big way of getting clients, and not only for me but a lot of people in my network and a lot of clients. The way to do business stopped. And I do like to focus on the solution and not on the problem. So I decided to do something about it. And everything started with me creating a page that honestly looked quite shitty at the beginning, saying, let’s meet for 1 hour online and let’s chat. I wanted to recreate the one that you had during the networking event.

So I knew I’m going to use Zoom and I knew I’m going to use the breakout rooms to do that. So that was it. I created a page stating that I invited my network and the first event, I don’t even remember the date took place. Then I had 16 people. I still remember that number and I remember the number because I said, let them be more than four.

Yeah, exactly.

Because otherwise you can’t do that and break out. And it was me just trying to put people that don’t know each other that well in rooms and invite them.

To have a show.

Facilitating, I was facilitating and having a group of 16 people, no high expectations were good for me. Bear with me here. I’m not sure what I’m doing. Let’s do it together. So it was quite informal and flexible. We grew, we did that for a couple of months and I realized actually at the peak we had around 50-something people.

Okay. 

But the more we grew after 20, I realized it became too much for me. I needed someone to talk with because there were so many people, they were trying to chat with each other or the schedule that you want to stay in that 1 hour and respect the time and respect your time because bear in mind, this is free of charge. So I’m spending money, not earning money, but I don’t mind that. But when you have a business, it’s something you need to consider and everyone is busy. So for them to come, they need to stick to the like that’s 1 hour, I’m giving you 1 hour of my time. So that’s quite important from a business point of view and one of my selling points as well.

 But when you start not having someone facilitating and doing the tech side, people are going to start chatting and that’s very nice, but it’s harder to maintain the time. So I was thinking, how can I manage that? And one way was for me to facilitate what somebody was doing, on the tech side or to get someone to facilitate while I was doing the tech side. One way around and I was thinking how can I bring more value? I use my community chatting with different people more or less what we do now, but in a private setting, not everyone hears it. Yeah, I decided to bring experts, not speakers, big difference, but to bring experts to share something on their expertise, like to provide tips in those three minutes while I do the tech side.

So we are containing and we are maintaining the time frame and then I can do the tech side and try my best not to put the same people in the same room. And of course, I learned initially there were just two people in the room and then I learned that’s not necessarily good. You need three to make sure there’s no conflict. All the things around it, all the psychology of meeting people and networking and things like that. So I kept on improving and learning a lot of things, of course.

All right, so then bring me to the present day. What brought you to this last kind of hinge, this last moment where you realize you need to change because what’s going along? Tell me about that.

So different things changed there because we launched. So we kept on experimenting with what type of people to bring and teams and what to do there. And we kept on slightly changing the content, but not the format. But what I’m realizing now, first of all, the number of attendees decreased. So now we have around 2025 from 50. So I do want to bring it up. I don’t want to face it because we do have a lot of people from outside the Netherlands and that’s the value and it’s easier to jump into online. So that’s one thing that is important for me, keep it online. But what I want to do is more targeted networking. So I tried introducing this idea before, but implementation wasn’t as great.

I don’t want just to place you in a room with someone and be curious and see if there’s any click. I want to place you in a room with someone that you can already start doing business with depending on your needs. So basically what I need is to better qualify the people attending joining the session and qualifying understanding. Who do they need to network with? Be it a new client or maybe they are looking for an investor. Or maybe they are looking to hire someone. Or maybe they do need to develop specific skills and they are curious about specific areas or what are your needs.

Okay, so a couple of questions. So when you talked about now wanting to get more targeted. So you talked about two drivers. One, you were kind of getting bored with it. Well, three. One is that you’re getting bored with it as it is. So feel like you need a little something. Two, the average number of attendees has dropped a bit, but it seems like it’s been pretty consistent around that number, in 2025 for a while. So it’s not like you’re hemorrhaging people. Like it’s dropped a bit, but it’s maintained. It’s kind of plateaued and hit a level. So it seems like you started at 16, spiked up to 50, and then dropped back down. But I have been here. So you could deduce from that. Maybe if we did something a little bit different, we could attract more people or something.

And then the third part you’re talking about is wanting to make it more targeted and whatnot. So what I’m curious about with all of these things is kind of why? What is the benefit to you? I know you don’t want to be bored. You want all those things. When I ask why, I do want to know the answer, but it is also a rhetorical part that’s a deliberate setup to my next question, which is do you have baseline data to find out? For example, was there any mechanic put into place or a mechanism put into place to get feedback from people after they attended the session? Or any way for you to quantify the number of connections or the impact or the value that attendees have received from attending a single session or multiple sessions or anything like that?

That’s a good question and we did some surveys to get some feedback. But now I realize we never asked if you got value from one or several. So that’s a very good question. I never followed up on that one. Was more what you’re looking for? Did it bring you value? We run at a specific point in a campaign and ask for recommendations or feedback. We did publish those on LinkedIn as well because we were curious if it brings you value. Do you want to do it? And we did get some valuable information about it. Also, a hard part is when you are asking them and of course, by organizing this network, you do know almost all of them. So when you ask for feedback, the feedback tends to always be positive.

I love that you’re saying this because this is like all day long. This is what happens with clients. Like oh, we tried that but doesn’t work. It’s like I don’t think it’s about the survey. I think it’s about the way it’s being facilitated or how the surveying and if people feel like so I think two things. I think number one if you’re still the center of that, like the hub, then it creates that type of dynamic, right? And so people don’t want to do this kind of thing. So I think there’s an opportunity to revisit this surveying component when it’s done, how it’s facilitated, who sends it, all of that stuff. Because ultimately you’re trying to get candid feedback, right?

Yes.

So I think that’s a really important piece.

Maybe another interesting anonymous, yeah, I mean.

There’s a lot that we could do. So I’m just putting that up there as, like, if I had somebody here, like, number one surveying survey. Survey.

That’s what I wrote.

All right, there we go. All right. So I think that could be unpacked and explored because I think that can and perhaps should be done regardless of how you iterate or not, whatever. I think it should be part of what you just do as the workflow, but try to figure out the cadence, the deliverable, all of those things. I think two other interesting data points that you can get, maybe you have some anecdotal info, but it would be amazing to have the data from it. So the sooner you could put this into motion, 1224 months later, you’ll have a good data set, looking at how many people attend once or multiple times. I did have all the people. So that is interesting to see.

And then ultimately, if you could find out why they are coming, it might be harder to find the people who only came once, why they didn’t return. But you could try. You could send a targeted campaign or have a targeted outreach or something to try to find out. But, for the people who have come two or more times, what purpose is this serving? What void is this filling? Are people coming for business development? Is the reason that people are coming? Does it match what your intention is and just to explore that and see, does that matter? Does it not? What do you do? To find out why they’re coming. And then the third bit is, yeah, what value are they getting from it? Is it business development opportunities? Is it new relationships that can further materialize and later grow?

I know they get business out of it because I’m told so.

Was told they do get it because you’re told about that.

Okay. Yes.

But even knowing that if you had that as data, that’s something that you could share, right?

I don’t have it as data, so I have it as feedback, but I can’t put a number to it.

Yeah. So it’s a benefit of doing it in a structured format to be able to say that 30% of the people who have attended have gotten some business out of it or something like that. But I do think so I’ll use myself as an example on this one, because I have attended maybe three, or maybe I think three or four, something like that. I think three. And so I would say, to date, have I gotten any direct business from it? I have not gotten direct business from gone. So I think of relationships as like how many layers deep do you go? So you get one referral and that leads to another referral and it leads to another. So I think of it like that. And so through ons, I have several tentacles now in relationships that are continuing.

So I’m like 1234 layers deep. On one. I have somebody else that I met through your ons that I’ve brought her business. Probably several thousand euros of business, maybe upwards of ten grand, or somewhere in and around that vicinity. Yeah. So I think a lot. But that’s why I was asking, because for me anyhow I think that there’s a lot of opportunity in the data, part of it, and finding out and looking for the alignment. Or misalignment of what you’re striving to do, what it is that you want to do, and then what other people, why they’re showing up, especially the people that have continued to show. See how much of that is consistent. Those 20 people each month, is it the same or not or what’s? The variability?

Around 50% are the same and then you have 25% new ones and 25%.

That was adding people.

Yes.

So I think it’ll be interesting to just look at those and then I go back to again, the reason I asked, what’s the purpose, what function does this play in your business? Is it business development? And if so, how do you assess the return? Like the resources? Because a lot of these things are trickier because that’s part of the challenge with it. It’s not always linear. So what’s the statute? I always would say, going back to how I’ve mentioned previously, that I used to get paid to shake hands at events and set up deals and whatnot, and often people would offer to pay me based on the percentage of deals closed or new business that was generated or something like that.

And I would always say, number one, I don’t want to thank you because I don’t want to not get paid if you’re not able to close business like I’m going to get. But number two, I would always say what’s the statute of limitation on a deal? Sometimes people meet and person A might be selling something that person B doesn’t even know that they need yet, but they click on something, and then 30 days later, three months later, or three years later, things shift. Whatnot they’re acquired or they buy a company or whatever it is, and now they remember that one, and then they circle back and you have no control over that. Yeah, so that’s the tricky part. So I feel like that’s why to me it’s so much about the strategic seed planting, but strategic seed planting anyway.

Thank you for that. And I just had a big AHA moment, I kind of knew it. But you do need to be confronted because when I launched the online networking with the spin, the purpose was just to connect people and this is what I did until now. But now I do need to integrate it into my marketing. It’s a product. It’s a product where ideas are created. So I need to realize what’s the position of this product in my overall strategy. Is it a product or is it a marketing tool? And if it’s a marketing tool, how do I fit it in my overall strategy and how do I fit it in the marketing funnel and sales funnel? Right.

I have to say I kind of struggle and not necessarily struggle, but I have to say I always said yeah, now is not a priority. It never became a priority for me because it didn’t fit properly into the business strategy. But now I’m actually in the process of switching that because things are switching as well and experimentation and pivoting right.

What we kept on discussing in real-time.

Yeah, I’m in the process of doing that. But you’re right I do need to go back and where do I fit this particular service because it is a service and how does it serve my business goals? Because it kind of moved from a reaction. This is a reaction to what is happening and now it doesn’t need to be a reaction, it needs to be moving from reacting to acting if that makes sense.

Yes.

And that’s a different approach.

It is. And it reminds me of another experience I’ve had working with clients. I’m just going to share this and hopefully, I trust that we have the rapport and that you’ll catch my drift in how I’m going to share this. So from working with clients over several years and building a lot of stuff, one of the questions I eventually started to ask, and I could ask it because I would have rapport with the client, but I could ask them candidly. So I’ll ask you as well. It’s like what is the purpose of this new thing we’re doing? Is it to drive new business opportunities or to lead development? Is it to nurture or to educate folks? Whatnot or is it really like being free to be famous? Is this an ego play? And it’s fine and it’s not a judgment thing.

 It’s not, it’s not intended to because it’s not anybody’s place to be judgmental of others and whatever. So I also realize it’s kind of an awkward question to ask like are you doing this to be famous? It sounds funny. So this is more of just something to chew on. Not necessarily a question for you to answer, but just to think about in an attempt to kind of give a little bit more structure of why to do this now.

No, it’s a very good question and I asked myself that one because I was like, do I want to maintain it? Do I want to drop it, do I want to change it? And definitely, it’s not an ego thing because honestly, I’m actually putting the emphasis more on my guests and what is happening there. So I do need to decide, how does it serve my company? And we do have a nonprofit part of it, but we do want to help people. So I do need to see where I place it. And that will dictate the rest of the things.

Yeah, I think I’m just going to jump in for a second because it’s just a few quick things. So one, yes, figuring out where it fits into your business and looking at your because I know your kind of target, your ideal client has also evolved a bit. So looking at two groups, looking at the previous clientele that you served, if this could be an opportunity to continue to serve them in a different way, number one. Number two, how could or can this new version of 2.0, how could it serve the audience that you’re moving into or the target market that you’re moving into? What would they be looking to gather from think that’s one bit. Another potential thing I’m just going to spitball a few things is just food for thought.

What if you used ONS as an opportunity to help develop your team’s talent by picking out the things that they are good at or the things that you want to strengthen in your team and have each one of them pick one or two topics and they’re going to do that month’s ons on topic A, B or C or whatever it is.

And now with that, something came to our mind as well. Yeah, cool.

Then it also shifts. And here’s part of the challenge with a lot of people who have a personal brand and a business, because a lot of people know Veronica. Right. But then you’re trying to make it like, yeah, but it’s spin ideas. It’s been an idea. So this would be a great opportunity to roll out spin ideas…

We yeah, so I think there’s some opportunity to go about it that way. But, yeah, I just wanted to share some of these things because when you first said you wanted to kind of evolve it to make the introductions more targeted, it made me think straight away, that’s a giant undertaking. There’s a lot that goes into that. And so right away I was like, is it justifiable how much is it worth to invest into that? Yeah, there’s a lot of tech. I mean, there’s some automation and whatnot, but there’s a lot in how far you go. And then sometimes there can be managing the expectation and sometimes it’s a path to kind of get lost in the sauce. So to me, it put up a few flags. I was like, all right, hold on.

Before we jump into how to structure that and all of it. I was like, let’s dial back a moment and see, is this the right way to go? Or why do we want to go here? Because doing that at scale is a beast of a build, I would say, at least from what I have seen and experienced, it is.

And this is why we keep one side is the technical side, how to do it, and the other one is to educate people to do it. Because if we want to make it so targeted, if you fill in the form and tell us what you want and we put the effort and get the right people there, but you don’t show up, there’s a big issue. So there has to be a commitment on all sides here. That was the biggest challenge because, from the beginning, I wanted to make it more targeted, but the audience was not responding as well as I was expecting it. And I was wondering, why not? Why aren’t you committed? I’m offering exactly what you need. And I’m still a little bit puzzled by that, but I realize not everyone is thinking like me.

Yeah, it’s interesting. So I’m just going to tell you for 1 second. When I first saw the format, I thought it was Rick. I think it was the one you did with me. Yes. And I was like, oh, my gosh, he’s from the US and I don’t know him, but he and I have several connections in common and he’s still on my list. Somewhere to reach back out to.

But anyway, he’s amazing.

Yeah. I couldn’t actively participate that day because I had my kid and it was madness.

I do remember.

Yeah. So I just wanted to observe, but I remember feeling like, wow, this format, I just didn’t get it. It felt very choppy and it felt contrived. And I thought, yeah, I don’t know about that format. But then the next time I came back, I went to another session, like a couple of months later or something, and I experienced it. And as I was going through it, I was like, I don’t know. And it’s like any time you’re in a new breakout group, there’s always that look around, who’s going to speak first, who’s going to grab the reins? And there’s always that awkward part, which is awkward, but it’s sometimes funny or sometimes it’s enjoyable, kind of, maybe I’m sadistic, I don’t know, but there’s that.

However, even as I experienced it and I thought, yeah, I don’t know if I would ever set it up that way, what an interesting way to approach it. It’s choppy. Then the result is now I’ve had somebody from ONS come and work with me, who’s amazing, and then I had all these other offshoots as well. So at the end of the day, I loved it because it produced far more than I would have expected. So I’m just sharing that as just my anecdotal experience. That’s that, thank you. On the other hand, when I was a presenter at one of them, that was tricky, I will say because it’s so choppy and it’s hard because the format was tough because there was not enough time to lay the foundation, to build rapport, to set the table.

And it’s like so much in my experience about building relationships or potential to do business with somebody or to listen to what they’re going to say, all of those things are predicated on the no like trust factor. And so to even set the table, you need to provide some context. So you need a little bit of time to create that context, to say hello, and to be able to introduce who you are, and what you do. But I don’t think it needs to be a 20-minute intro, but enough time. So I think it was most awkward for me as a presenter to feel like I couldn’t add any value because.

You’re not a proper presenter. That’s the thing. You just need bits of information, just a little bit of getting there.

Hard because it is hard enough. Yeah, it was awkward and then I don’t know how much it came across. So that part.

Yeah, I am aware of that. I’m not trying to defend, I’m aware of this. We’re trying to follow up with an article where you would explain what you want to do because there are 15 minutes in total, we probably need to say everything and it’s impossible, especially when you talk about building.

Relationships, that you can’t be sorry to go back one more time. I’m going back to you with great potential info from the people who have attended more than one time right? That you could probably reach out to the people you’ve got, like the regular, the 50% regular, that’s kind of one group. So I would take their input and kind of look at it separately from the other group, but still finding out where I was going about it. Yeah, where the heck was I going about? They were looking for a business. Yeah, I lost my train of thought. They’re looking for a business. I asked them what the heck was I going to do. I had a great point. Sometimes that happens. There it goes. Yes, the Swiss cheese brain. They call it motherhood or old age, I don’t know. Hold on for 1 second. No, I had that.

Yeah, maybe we already touched on this a little bit, but I was thinking about yeah, okay, here’s where I was going. So the people that are coming.

Veronica Guguian: The.

People who are coming and also thinking about the business, people who have given you feedback to say they’ve gotten business out of it, is that business that’s been generated from new people they just met in one session? Or is it the continuity and people getting to know each other better? Because that could help you to figure out the formatting and maybe you have hubs or maybe you have a certain number of people. Only the first eight or ten people are in for this topic or maybe some way to create more structure around it. Because here’s the thing, even if I’m looking for somebody to, I don’t know, do my newsletter or something, help me with email marketing, even if I am, if I meet somebody in one of your things, it doesn’t mean I’m going to necessarily hire them. 

Like I don’t even know who they are yet but I might observe them. Or probably another example would be if there’s something that’s on my board of things I would like to do or I know I’ll be incorporating in three to six months with somebody in the ONS I’m like now, it gives me another added reason to go if I know that person will also be there. Or it’s another opportunity to learn to get a vibe of who they are and kind of observe people from a distance without it being an awkward kind of thing. In any case, I think that there are two channels here.

I don’t know if the business was so the core message is here is the first contact with the person. You do need to follow up afterward. So we are preaching this, we are always constantly saying it because it’s impossible, as you said, it’s impossible to say I’m going to work with you after five minutes. You don’t know that but you can say I want to continue my conversation with you after a five-minute conversation. So that’s the invitation and this is what we are promising. And of course, afterward, you do need to keep on the conversation and see if we are fit. Maybe you have a project and you need that particular person but the chances for that to happen are not that high because they’re too many factors to take into account.

But still goes back to the same reason. Why are people showing up and is the value that people receive from it or what they hope to receive from it, is it in alignment or not with what you want? And then just to see is there another way to approach it? Is changing the format to try to make the intros more targeted? Is that going to help your business and help people or not?

Yeah, I think that’s the question. Thank you. I’m aware of the time. Yeah, but this was very useful to provide a different perspective and I think that’s very important for all of us when we are either experimenting or we are stuck in our old ways. And I think the big value that you are bringing and also spin when we are coming is that we are coming from outside. Because for me, I went through these similar exercises with my team but the main issue is we are in the same place. We are seeing it from the same perspective. Yes. Because we are so much into this and it’s so easy to see where you stand or to come up with a question that will change everything when you’re seeing it from outside.

And you made me wonder at this point, it’s actually, do I need to change the structure? Do I want to do that? And kind of makes me go back to what I’m providing and what one of my values is creating connections. So if I’m doing it too business-oriented, I’m kind of losing one of my core values, establishing relationships. So for me, I do need to go back to what I want and how do I place it?

Yes.

One thing is for sure, I’m not going to give it up. I do like it and I do see the value, but I do feel it does need a restructure. So that’s very definitely why I need to go and incorporate all of this and do some work.

Yeah, just do a very simple one-circle, like all of the things that matter to you. Where do you get value as a professional, and as a business owner? Where does your business get value? How about where does your team fit into it? Then look at the current or prospective attendees and what the values, what are their motivations exactly. And look for that eclipse there and.

That’s yours and just find exactly what we need to do.

It also reminded me to hold on, I look at my notes for a second. It’s really fast. Yeah. So it also made me think, there’s a woman, Shannon, that I should introduce you to. Although she’s the first person that came to mind when you were thinking about doing more kind of targeted intros. But even if not, she has a really interesting approach to, I would say content about, I guess content creation and networks and targeted networks of people with a shared interest. I don’t know how else to articulate it. She would probably be like, wow, that is not what I do. But that’s how I understand what she does. But she has a very interesting approach and I think she has a tool that she has built or she’s been using that’s interesting, that brings people together around a topic.

And so I’m going to introduce you to Shannon because I think what she has could be useful to you, perhaps with one is what I’m thinking. Or maybe so I just want to make a note. It’s in the show notes so I won’t forget. And it’s on my board now too. So introduce you to Shannon.

I made the notes.

Cool. Thank you. Yeah. So hopefully it is helpful and it is so much about having an outside perspective and somebody like, I don’t want to hurt your feelings. I don’t want to do this is not.

Anything, but it’s not about hurting feelings out of that. Exactly. And the fact that I brought it up and I’m willing to listen, means I’m seeing an issue here. I’m seeing a need for change. So that’s one of the hard parts because change is not always smooth or polite. You have to be willing to face the truth and say, hey, something is not working here. And I think that’s the first step. And what we were discussing at the beginning and also in a previous episode, the one about experimentation, that’s the big thing. You do need to sit down and say, why am I doing it and am I willing to change to do something about it, to grow? Or do I just want to stay in my comfort zone because this is what I know for sure?

So kudos to you for being that type of leader and business owner who’s open, flexible, and willing to come up with new ways of doing things or not. So I think that speaks highly of you. And don’t worry, you’ll have your chance for payback because in a future episode, we’ll do a role reversal and we’ll look at one of my little secret things and we’ll whiteboard one of my things.

Sounds good. And to our listeners, if you like that, and if you want, we are more than happy to get a part of your business or your business and do the same thing for you. So that could be a fun one. You put us on the spot. Yeah, no kidding.

That would be fun. The other thing is yeah, that’s a really good idea. And also I want to say, like, stay tuned for the ONS 2.0, everybody. I can’t wait to see what it is.

Going to be in November. We do have the November edition that will be very focused on networking, and we are doing it in collaboration with one of our clients, Simani. We’re going to launch it. We’re going to launch the information and everything and the possibility to register in about one week and a half time. So stay tuned for that. Cool.

 All right.

Thank you, Jillian, for the feedback. Very many things for me to sit down and think about and create. And I’m excited because I have no clue what I’m going to come up with.

I’m eager. I’m curious to hear where you land and what your kind of plan is moving forward. Specifically, I’m curious if you ever want to chat more about how you plan to approach the surveying piece and also what your thinking is about the structure or the format. So at some point, we can circle back to those. I’m quite curious where you are.

And with that, I think we need to close our episode. I think this would be one of them.

This is life, like.

And we had no idea what direction we were going to go. Jillian knew about the topic. But that’s all.

Thanks for playing.

Thank you. And thank you all for listening. Until next time.

Ciao.